Delta 192 Audiophile Vista SP1 resume failure

[redrol]

I have contacted support about this issue a while back but it is still not fixed. I'm getting a bit annoyed at not being able to suspend my computer.

Here is some more information since my computer blue screened coming out of standby.

Motherboard Gigabyte EP45 DS3L
Ram 4GB G.Skill DDR2
Audiophile 192 only PCI card in system
Vista Business 32bit

I performed a windbg.exe (windows dump debugger) on my memory.dmp file.
Here is the output.

************************************************** *****************************
* *
* Bugcheck Analysis *
* *
************************************************** *****************************

DRIVER_POWER_STATE_FAILURE (9f)
A driver is causing an inconsistent power state.
Arguments:
Arg1: 00000003, A device object has been blocking an Irp for too long a time
Arg2: 85469030, Physical Device Object of the stack
Arg3: 87d6ec30, Functional Device Object of the stack
Arg4: 8698b690, The blocked IRP

Debugging Details:
------------------


DRVPOWERSTATE_SUBCODE: 3

IRP_ADDRESS: 8698b690

DEVICE_OBJECT: 87d6ec30

DRIVER_OBJECT: 87d6e0e8

IMAGE_NAME: deltaII.sys

DEBUG_FLR_IMAGE_TIMESTAMP: 47cc1484

MODULE_NAME: deltaII

FAULTING_MODULE: 99125000 deltaII

DEFAULT_BUCKET_ID: VISTA_DRIVER_FAULT

BUGCHECK_STR: 0x9F

PROCESS_NAME: System

CURRENT_IRQL: 2

LAST_CONTROL_TRANSFER: from 81c45b5c to 81cdf0e3

STACK_TEXT:
81d07acc 81c45b5c 0000009f 00000003 85469030 nt!KeBugCheckEx+0x1e
81d07b28 81c456ac 81d07bb8 81d07c50 81d20401 nt!PopCheckIrpWatchdog+0x1ad
81d07b68 81cc8c40 81d204e0 00000000 f29d495f nt!PopCheckForIdleness+0x343
81d07c88 81cc8800 81d07cd0 86cab002 81d07cd8 nt!KiTimerListExpire+0x367
81d07ce8 81cc83c3 00000000 00000000 00356c00 nt!KiTimerExpiration+0x22a
81d07d50 81cc6edd 00000000 0000000e 00000000 nt!KiRetireDpcList+0xba
81d07d54 00000000 0000000e 00000000 00000000 nt!KiIdleLoop+0x49


STACK_COMMAND: kb

FOLLOWUP_NAME: MachineOwner

FAILURE_BUCKET_ID: 0x9F_IMAGE_deltaII.sys

BUCKET_ID: 0x9F_IMAGE_deltaII.sys

Followup: MachineOwner
---------

[JA]

We don't support sleep/hibernate/suspend mode; often times you will have to restart for the device to work properly when waking; this is really system dependent. However, the system should not blue screen. What driver version are you running? If you move the 192 to different PCI slots does the problem persist?

[redrol]

I am running the latest version drivers from your website 5.10.0.5069. This problem has persisted through 3 different motherboards. Slots do not matter that I have noticed.

[macduff88]

hi

i have exactly the same problem, and diagnosed the same crash dump info with windbg

JA - why is sleep/hibernate/suspend mode not supported? these are very basic features widely used. all my other hardware drivers can cope. surely avid is big and professional enough to sort these problems out?

as a workaround, is there anything that can be run to disable/re-enable the driver on demand? i only use my delta 192 card from time to time, but very frequently put my pc into sleep mode.

[alexx]

as a workaround, is there anything that can be run to disable/re-enable the driver on demand? i only use my delta 192 card from time to time, but very frequently put my pc into sleep mode.

yes, disable the driver when not working with audio, just rightclick and choose "disable" in "Device Manager"

[redrol]

I just tried an Asus P5QL-E and a Asus P5B-Deluxe. Both motherboards do the same thing. However now I am getting continuous blue screens as soon as the computer boots, with a D1 failure code, WINDBG indicates deltaii.sys as well. For now I will have to use the card in a XP machine since under vista, this card is making me angry.

[macduff88]

thanks alexx - i've tried this and it just about works. first attempt to disable the driver crashed Device Manager (!), but does seem to have stopped it. looks like i can't re-enable without rebooting, however. hopefully it'll stop my daily bluescreens, though. thanks again

[patricklang]

I am hitting this with the newly released Delta drivers for X64 as well. Every time my machine goes to sleep after audio has been used, it bugchecks.

Has any progress been made? You can contact me at my registered address for full details, and I am willing to help investigate the bug by providing live remote debuggers, full memory dumps, etc.

The comment about not supporting suspend confuses me - this is the default used by Vista and will be used in future versions of Windows as well. Sleep state transitions (S1 - S4) are also required in Microsoft WHQL certification. A product cannot get a Vista logo on the box without it. Not supporting sleep would be against the grain for Windows driver development requirements.

0: kd> !analyze -v
************************************************** *****************************
* *
* Bugcheck Analysis *
* *
************************************************** *****************************

DRIVER_POWER_STATE_FAILURE (9f)
A driver is causing an inconsistent power state.
Arguments:
Arg1: 0000000000000003, A device object has been blocking an Irp for too long a time
Arg2: fffffa8006d6da30, Physical Device Object of the stack
Arg3: fffffa8008c505f0, Functional Device Object of the stack
Arg4: fffffa8009398c60, The blocked IRP

Debugging Details:
------------------

*** ERROR: Module load completed but symbols could not be loaded for deltaII.sys

DRVPOWERSTATE_SUBCODE: 3

IRP_ADDRESS: fffffa8009398c60

DEVICE_OBJECT: fffffa8008c505f0

DRIVER_OBJECT: fffffa8008c53c10

IMAGE_NAME: deltaII.sys

DEBUG_FLR_IMAGE_TIMESTAMP: 4910b046

MODULE_NAME: deltaII

FAULTING_MODULE: fffffa600293b000 deltaII

DEFAULT_BUCKET_ID: VISTA_DRIVER_FAULT

BUGCHECK_STR: 0x9F

PROCESS_NAME: System

CURRENT_IRQL: 2

LAST_CONTROL_TRANSFER: from fffff800026c905e to fffff8000266a350

STACK_TEXT:
fffff800`036dd9f8 fffff800`026c905e : 00000000`0000009f 00000000`00000003 fffffa80`06d6da30 fffffa80`08c505f0 : nt!KeBugCheckEx
fffff800`036dda00 fffff800`026728b3 : fffff800`036ddad8 00000000`00000000 00000000`00000002 fffffa60`04677701 : nt! ?? ::FNODOBFM::`string'+0x18318
fffff800`036dda70 fffff800`02673238 : fffff800`036ddcd0 00000000`00000002 fffff800`036ddcc8 00000000`00000010 : nt!KiTimerListExpire+0x333
fffff800`036ddca0 fffff800`02673a9f : 00001da5`b4d09826 00000000`00000000 fffffa80`00000010 fffff800`0278ca80 : nt!KiTimerExpiration+0x1d8
fffff800`036ddd10 fffff800`02674b62 : fffff800`02789680 fffff800`02789680 00000000`00000000 fffff800`0278eb80 : nt!KiRetireDpcList+0x1df
fffff800`036ddd80 fffff800`028425c0 : 00000000`00000000 00000000`00000000 00000000`00000000 00000000`00000000 : nt!KiIdleLoop+0x62
fffff800`036dddb0 00000000`fffff800 : 00000000`00000000 00000000`00000000 00000000`00000000 00000000`00000000 : nt!zzz_AsmCodeRange_End+0x4
fffff800`036d70b0 00000000`00000000 : 00000000`00000000 00000000`00000000 00000000`00000000 00680000`00000000 : 0xfffff800


STACK_COMMAND: kb

FOLLOWUP_NAME: MachineOwner

FAILURE_BUCKET_ID: X64_0x9F_IMAGE_deltaII.sys

BUCKET_ID: X64_0x9F_IMAGE_deltaII.sys

Followup: MachineOwner

[macduff88]

i am extememly disappointed with m-audio over this issue. i'm now also getting the same bluescreen caused by my delta 192 even though i'm not using any sleep modes.

the level of support from m-audio is really poor. they just say they don't support the problem, so tough! i was passed onto managment by a front-line support staff, and my emails were completely ignored.

i strongly recommend to anyone thinking of buying m-audio products to think again

[herbasveezer]

Hello, I just registered to post that I have the same problem with blue screens and "DRIVER STATE POWER FAILURE" on Vista at hibernate. Perhaps somebody at M-Audio will react when more people with that prob show up.

Greetz Herb:mad:

[redrol]

Just a word for people in this thread. Buy a new sound card. M-Audio couldn't care less about this bug.

On the bright side, the Vista 64 version of the drivers work with s3 on mine, ie, they resume. But of course, Windows 7 is going to be out in a few months and of COURSE the damn s3 resume bug still exists in Windows 7 using all the vista 32 and 64 drivers.

I gave up on m-audio long long ago. :mad:

[arch8472]

Hi all, glad to find this thread - though disapointed to see that nothing seems to have been done to reolve the issue.

It's taken me some months to work out what the issue was. There may be people who suffer this problem continuously without any hope of resolving it.

As far as I am aware, I did not see any documentation stating that the card did not support Vitsa 'sleep' mode before I purchased it. In my view 'sleep' is a fundamental function of the OS, and not to support it shows a lack of concern for customers 'useability'.

Is anyone at M-Audio able to tell me whether this issue is due to be rectified? I would hope that at least one developer/engineer could be allocated to investigate.

Thanks - and here's hoping for a resolution.


For reference here is my minidump analysis:

************************************************** *****************************
* *
* Bugcheck Analysis *
* *
************************************************** *****************************

DRIVER_POWER_STATE_FAILURE (9f)
A driver is causing an inconsistent power state.
Arguments:
Arg1: 0000000000000003, A device object has been blocking an Irp for too long a time
Arg2: fffffa800274a060, Physical Device Object of the stack
Arg3: fffffa800521be10, Functional Device Object of the stack
Arg4: fffffa8003e18b80, The blocked IRP

Debugging Details:
------------------


DRVPOWERSTATE_SUBCODE: 3

IRP_ADDRESS: fffffa8003e18b80

DEVICE_OBJECT: fffffa800521be10

DRIVER_OBJECT: fffffa80052157e0

IMAGE_NAME: deltaII.sys

DEBUG_FLR_IMAGE_TIMESTAMP: 4910b046

MODULE_NAME: deltaII

FAULTING_MODULE: fffffa6002ec8000 deltaII

CUSTOMER_CRASH_COUNT: 1

DEFAULT_BUCKET_ID: VISTA_DRIVER_FAULT

BUGCHECK_STR: 0x9F

PROCESS_NAME: dwm.exe

CURRENT_IRQL: 2

LAST_CONTROL_TRANSFER: from fffff80001ed205e to fffff80001e73350

STACK_TEXT:
fffff800`03461c28 fffff800`01ed205e : 00000000`0000009f 00000000`00000003 fffffa80`0274a060 fffffa80`0521be10 : nt!KeBugCheckEx
fffff800`03461c30 fffff800`01e7b8b3 : fffff800`03461d08 00000000`00000000 00000000`00000001 fffff800`01fc3f01 : nt! ?? ::FNODOBFM::`string'+0x18318
fffff800`03461ca0 fffff800`01e7c2f5 : fffff800`03461f00 fffff800`01eeec02 fffff800`03461ef8 00000000`00000010 : nt!KiTimerListExpire+0x333
fffff800`03461ed0 fffff800`01e7ca9f : 0003d3b2`5aded951 fffffa60`0b780ca0 fffff800`00000010 fffff800`01f95a80 : nt!KiTimerExpiration+0x295
fffff800`03461f40 fffff800`01e76825 : fffffa60`02d1133c fffff800`01f92680 fffffa60`0b780ca0 fffff800`02363320 : nt!KiRetireDpcList+0x1df
fffff800`03461fb0 fffff800`01e76637 : 00000000`00000000 00000000`00000000 00000000`00000000 00000000`00000000 : nt!KyRetireDpcList+0x5
fffffa60`0b780be0 00000000`00000000 : 00000000`00000000 00000000`00000000 00000000`00000000 00000000`00000000 : nt!KiDispatchInterruptContinue


STACK_COMMAND: kb

FOLLOWUP_NAME: MachineOwner

FAILURE_BUCKET_ID: X64_0x9F_IMAGE_deltaII.sys

BUCKET_ID: X64_0x9F_IMAGE_deltaII.sys

Followup: MachineOwner
---------

0: kd> lmvm deltaII
start end module name
fffffa60`02ec8000 fffffa60`02f29000 deltaII T (no symbols)
Loaded symbol image file: deltaII.sys
Image path: \SystemRoot\system32\DRIVERS\deltaII.sys
Image name: deltaII.sys
Timestamp: Tue Nov 04 20:27:50 2008 (4910B046)
CheckSum: 00066DEA
ImageSize: 00061000
Translations: 0000.04b0 0000.04e4 0409.04b0 0409.04e4

[boisso]

On XP, 5069v3 fails on hibernate too. But previous drivers 5057v3 works perfectly. So this is a regression, not something impossible to fix ...

[hogben]

Can anyone confirm if the Delta V64 5.10.00.5069v3 drivers are working properly on the Delta 192 in Windows Vista 64 SP1 ?

Does resuming from sleep work properly?

EDIT: Installed the Delta 192 in Windows Vista 64 SP1 with the 5.10.00.5069v3 drivers and have had no problems. Shutdown and sleep is fine. Running at 24/192 with 256 samples is less than 1ms of latency.

[pacman]

My experience with the M-Audio Delta AP-192 driver (Delta_V32_5.10.00.5069v3) for Microsoft Windows Vista SP1 (32bit) is somewhat weird. Definitely annoying and very time consuming. My experience is a highly unstable driver to say the least!

Yes, we are talking blue screen crashes. And yes, like many of you I am both frustrated and surprised to find that M-Audio apparently is not working actively to solve this problem on what otherwise appears to be a high profile product.

I don't think that "the blue screen crash" surprise is solely connected to Vistas sleep mode. Every time I install a new piece of sound software I can be assured of one thing: Blue screen crash. After the data dump (the blue screen crash), the machine needs to be rebooted in Safe Mode, and the AP-192 driver needs to be COMPLETELY uninstalled (meaning, using the clean-up function of the Delta_V32_5.10.00.5069v3.exe file). Then a re-install of the Delta_V32_5.10.00.5069v3, and everything is apparantly stable again. (This is fairly roughly what I mean by "annoying" and "time consuming").

And then just today I needed to install a couple of updates from the Microsoft Windows web site (Explorer 8, .NET 3.5 and some Office security updates) - and the incredible blue screen crash again became a part of my evening experience.

Safe Mode boot. Off with the driver....On again. And here we go. Around and around. Eventually the system became stable again. (This is a damn good crystal clear reason for people NOT to buy this product).

Who on earth is responsible for this highly unstable and extremely unprofessional version of a Vista SP1 (32bit) driver?

[ncfoster]

Wow, I just discovered this thread after getting tired of the friggin' blue screens. I am running a Delta 410 on Vista 32-bit SP1. To not even try to fix this issue and suggest disabling the driver when "not working with audio" is a joke. I almost wish they'd never released these crappy drivers for Vista at all.

Also, while I'm moaning, can anyone tell me why the Delta 410 is classified as legacy, while many other Delta products that I believe are from the same era, like the 1010, etc. are not.

[tanderson002]

Having exactly the same problem with a freshly installed machine, Windows Vista Ultimate x64 using an Audiophile 2496.

I had this problem with my last PC and various reinstalls on this machine and problem STILL persists after all this time and with latest drivers

Any update on when this will be fixed? as its stands, I cant use my soundcard!

************************************************** *****************************
* *
* Bugcheck Analysis *
* *
************************************************** *****************************

DRIVER_POWER_STATE_FAILURE (9f)
A driver is causing an inconsistent power state.
Arguments:
Arg1: 0000000000000003, A device object has been blocking an Irp for too long a time
Arg2: fffffa8004c0da30, Physical Device Object of the stack
Arg3: fffffa80062d05c0, Functional Device Object of the stack
Arg4: fffffa800496c880, The blocked IRP

Debugging Details:
------------------

*** WARNING: Unable to verify timestamp for deltaII.sys
*** ERROR: Module load completed but symbols could not be loaded for deltaII.sys

DRVPOWERSTATE_SUBCODE: 3

IRP_ADDRESS: fffffa800496c880

DEVICE_OBJECT: fffffa80062d05c0

DRIVER_OBJECT: fffffa80062e9aa0

IMAGE_NAME: deltaII.sys

DEBUG_FLR_IMAGE_TIMESTAMP: 4910b046

MODULE_NAME: deltaII

FAULTING_MODULE: fffffa6004020000 deltaII

CUSTOMER_CRASH_COUNT: 1

DEFAULT_BUCKET_ID: VISTA_DRIVER_FAULT

BUGCHECK_STR: 0x9F

PROCESS_NAME: System

CURRENT_IRQL: 2

LAST_CONTROL_TRANSFER: from fffff80001d1076d to fffff80001cb5450

STACK_TEXT:
fffff800`02ff79f8 fffff800`01d1076d : 00000000`0000009f 00000000`00000003 fffffa80`04c0da30 fffffa80`062d05c0 : nt!KeBugCheckEx
fffff800`02ff7a00 fffff800`01cb90dd : fffff800`02ff7ad8 00000000`00000000 00000000`00000001 fffff800`01dfff01 : nt! ?? ::FNODOBFM::`string'+0x17cec
fffff800`02ff7a70 fffff800`01cb8818 : fffff800`02ff7cd0 fffffa60`00d95702 fffff800`02ff7cc8 00000000`00000010 : nt!KiTimerListExpire+0x30d
fffff800`02ff7ca0 fffff800`01cb972f : 000009e4`5217c683 00000000`00000000 fffffa80`00000010 fffff800`01dd1a80 : nt!KiTimerExpiration+0x1d8
fffff800`02ff7d10 fffff800`01cb98e2 : fffff800`01dce680 fffff800`01dce680 00000000`00000000 fffff800`01dd3b80 : nt!KiRetireDpcList+0x1df
fffff800`02ff7d80 fffff800`01e86860 : 00000000`00000000 00000000`00000000 00000000`00000000 00000000`00000000 : nt!KiIdleLoop+0x62
fffff800`02ff7db0 00000000`00000000 : 00000000`00000000 00000000`00000000 00000000`00000000 00000000`00000000 : nt!zzz_AsmCodeRange_End+0x4

STACK_COMMAND: kb

FOLLOWUP_NAME: MachineOwner

FAILURE_BUCKET_ID: X64_0x9F_IMAGE_deltaII.sys

BUCKET_ID: X64_0x9F_IMAGE_deltaII.sys

[pacman]

Oh yeah, just returned from ANOTHER blue-screen-crash, thought I'd step by to see...well...to see...?! >>> that the idiotic company responsible for the coding of this driver HAS STILL NOT MADE ANY EFFORTS TO SOLVE OUT ITS MESS?!!

On the positive side - yeah hell, the whole M-Audio 192 driver-story actually DOES have a positive side - the driver a p p a r a n t l y works on an Intel based machine running MS Windows Vista 32bit (SP1). See, I have this nephew who's ALSO very interested in music, so I helped him out, installing operating system and sound software from scratch (of course scaring his ass off with horrible nasty stories of all the troubles he's bound to encounter, using cripled hard- and especially software from M-Audio). This scratch-install gave me a truly R A R E glance at how things COULD (make that SHOULD!) run on my machine also.

The major difference between his machine and mine would appear to be Intel vs. AMD, really. He's using an Intel 2,66 quad core q6600 based board with 3GB on it, whereas I'm, well, at least TRYING to run my sound-software on an AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core 6000+ with 4GB ram (oh, I just had yet another blue-screen while typing this, just for the record. Love it. Can't imagine a life without it anymore).

And just what did that "discovery" make me do? Format my machine completely. Scratch install. The whole mill. MAYBE my entire system was somehow corrupt?

NO. No No No....and absolutely NO! - my desperate measures didn't bring anything but a servere waste of time with it - thanx again, M-Audio (truly professional staff you've got there). A completely clean install is NOT the answer to anyone of you guys out there suffering from the same M-Audio inflicted troubles.

System:
- AMD Athlon 64 X2 Dual Core 6000+
- 4 GB RAM
- Microsoft Windows Vista 32bit (both WITH and WITHOUT SP1)
- All the latest drivers (including "the latest" so-called Delta_V32_5.10.00.5069v3 from M-Audio which consistenly brings my system to its knees).
- NVIDIA GeForce 8500 GT (hell, I'm into SOUND not graphics)
- Onboard Realtek High Definition audio component (which my nephew ALSO had, so you don't need to speculate if THAT's the reason. It's clearly not.).

ERROR EXPERIENCE:
EVERY time I install a midi-related piece of software and set it up to use my M-Audio 192 soundcard, upon reboot my machine CONSISTENTLY throws a blue-screen-crash!

WHAT WORKS FOR ME (that is: steals my time in rediculous proportions):
1) Upon reboot from a blue-screen-crash hit F8 and enter your operating system in SAFE MODE.
2) Use Delta_V32_5.10.00.5069v3.exe ("the latest" so-called driver from M-Audio) to COMPLETELY wipe out any driver information on your system.
3) Use Delta_V32_5.10.00.5069v3.exe once again to re-install the driver.
4) Reboot.


...it works for me, however time-consuming and insulting it may appear to me as a consumer. You may want to give it a go.

Please report back to this site with any observation that may confirm or reject the idea of an Intel vs. AMD issue.

[JVRaines]

While we wait for the M-Audio engineers to finish reading the Windows Driver Kit documentation, here is a solution I've implemented on my Vista-64 system.

1. Obtain the program devcon.exe in the appropriate version for your system. The 32-bit version can be downloaded publicly from Microsoft, but the Vista 64-bit version is only available in the Windows Driver Kit from Microsoft Connect. (Yes, you have to register blah, blah, blah but it's worth it.)

2. Look up your sound card hardware ID in Device Manager. (Properties/Details/Hardware Ids). Right click one of them and choose "Copy."

3. Put devcon.exe and a new batch file (I called mine safesleep.bat) in the same folder. Here are the contents of the batch file:
devcon disable hardware_id
rundll32 powrprof.dll, SetSuspendState 0,1,0
devcon enable hardware_id
hardware_id is, of course, the ID you just copied in Device Manager.

4. Open up the batch file Properties and on the Compatibility tab, check "Run this program as an administrator."

5. Put the file or a shortcut wherever it's handy to you. I put mine in the QuickLaunch toolbar with a power button icon.

6. Use only this batch file (or a shortcut) to put your computer to sleep.

[pacman]

Hi there,

I'd grown almost accustomed to turning my Delta Audiophile 192 OFF evertime I closed down my computer. On not so rare occasions I'd forget it, and the blue screen crash would immediately remind me of why I should never have bought this insulting piece of a sound card - or rather, the drivers that came with it.

BUT! Recently, that would be within the past 14 days (I'd guess), this particular and HIGHLY frustratring problem simply evaporised from my machine. Vanished. Gone. Not there!

No. I haven't changed anything, done anything unusual or weird. Nothing. Except perhaps for continuously downloading updates from Microsoft - which is NOT unusual, right?

My humble guess is that some Microsoft Update thing in some miraculous fashion just cured my machine out of its miseries. But I had stopped looking for solves for this problem, and the solve therefore only revealed itself by accident. I simply forgot to turn the driver OFF, and was expecting one of those nasty blue devil things.

I have no one left to blame anymore. My rage left my body and soul overnight. Strange. Especially considering the time I was forced to live with it. And suddenly I don't even know if any of those former accusations up there in the thread against M-Audio was completely justified, or if it was really Microsoft who had a bug in its system files somewhere.

So - to the M-Audio team: I'm finally very pleased to experience the impressive and undisturbed powers of the Delta Audiophile 192. Truly great soundcard. Now that it works. Really works.

...what took you so long, man?

[pacman]

Hi anyone,

my former post is no longer valid. Again, I have absolutely NO idea of what really happened. I got a somewhat unusual blue screen crash that I did not directly associate with the M-Audio Delta Audiophile 192 soundcard driver.

This is not to say that my system is "unstable". I'd say that appart from this very very rare incident, which may occur with something like 2 years in between (and sufficiently poor software), my system NEVER acts weird.

After this little incident, everything is back to "normal". Please interpret "normal" as a stage where I'm forced to deactivate the M-Audio Delta Audiophile 192 soundcard driver from Device Manager before shutdown, unless I want my system to throw the "normal" blue screen crash.

I am...I'd say...back to basics. Back to hell. Back to a place where the engineers at M-Audio finds please on it for me to be. Rage returned...overnight.

Did I just salute the M-Audio Team in that former post? We are back to words like incompetent, imbiciles, idiots and the likes again. With a chance that I may actually miss the mark a bit with my accusations.

But I can live with that. I can live with these guys being only 95% morons.