View Full Version : Delta 66 S/PDIF output crackling
Well, I put tons of time in and think I've finally got my system able to record at 88 or 96 without pops. However, in playback through S/PDIF I thought I kept hearing a clicking noise. When I high-pass-filtered the output I could easily hear large spikes. It seems to happen regardless of sample rate or buffer size. I was using an analog RCA cable and moved up to a digital one. It seems to have gotten better, but not perfect. Monitoring the output through my Omni box seems fine, it's just when I monitor S/PDIF through an external DAC -- in this case a Crane Song HEDD 192. I feel like I understand clocking pretty well. Do I just need to spend more money on better cable? Anything tricky about using the S/PDIF output?
So, is the Delta 66 S/PDIF output just not up to the job at 88.2k and 96k? It seems whenever that's in my chain I get the popping. If I drive the HEDD DAC with a different S/PDIF source -- like my dbx 386 stimulated with a pink noise source -- I get clean signal. I think my experiments have eliminated the HEDD and the cables. Any comments? Or is anybody successfully using the Delta's S/PDIF output at 88.2k or 96k?
Are you running the 5057 driver? Your sig says 5065 but in another post you mention the patchbay/router tab which is labeled differently on the latest Delta drivers.
Yes. Sorry. Sig fixed. I'm running 5057v3, which is the latest recommended on the site for XP SP2. When I reformatted and installed my OS I stuck with SP2 and didn't upgrade to SP3. Should I update the driver? Can 5069v3 be used with SP2? Should I update the OS *and* the driver?
Thanks for all the help. I appreciate the support.
Delta 66 bump. JA -- just wondering if you recommend SP3 + 5069v3 for best performance at higher sample rates (88.2k/96k) or if SP2 + 5057v3 has equivalent performance.
Thanks.
Sorry for the delay. Our Verifications department has been backed up and hadn't gotten around to testing the 66 yet; so I just re-imaged an XP SP2 system and I tested playing back via S/PDIF from a Delta 66 (5057 driver) with Ableton Live and had no problems at 88.2 or 96k.
I'm not sure that updating to SP3 and the new driver will improve things. Does raising or lowering the buffer have any effect on the pops and clicks?
Hmmm... No. It seems that "buffer size doesn't matter." So, your test setup was using the 66's internal clock and monitoring through a DAC via S/PDIF? I can't think of what else in my system might be different. What about changes to the card? I bought my card "way back" when it was sold with the Omni I/O. Is there such a thing as an older card vs. a newer card?
Thanks again.
Yes, my test was with the 66 as the clock master. There have been different Rev's of the Delta cards, but there have been no major changes. If you look at the PCI card, it should indicate the Rev (e.g. Rev B).
Are you able to test using the HEDD as the clock master?
WARNING. LENGTHY POST. :)
The card is Rev. B. I tried a few more things using the HEDD, M-Powered 7.4, and XP SP2 with the 5057 driver.
I set the Delta's Master Clock to S/PDIF In and it shows Locked. Buffer size is maxed out at 2048. I set up a new 96k/24-bit session and added 2 mono tracks. Each track is routed to a mono output corresponding to the Delta's S/PDIF left and right outputs. The Delta's S/PDIF is connected to the HEDD.
I have the HEDD set up to operate independently and simultaneously as an ADC and a DAC. The HEDD's DAC always takes its clock from the S/PDIF input.
With the transport stopped and neither track record enabled there is silence -- no pops or clicks. If I play the session (with no audio in it) there's still silence. With the transport stopped, if I put either or both tracks in record enable I begin to hear the pops and clicks -- maybe 1 every 2-5 seconds. If I begin recording I continue to hear the pops and clicks but they are not being recorded (don't show up in the waveforms and are not found by tab-to-transient). Mind you, nothing is connected to the HEDD's inputs so I am recording "nothing."
When I disarm these tracks there is again silence. If I begin playing back the silence I just recorded the pops and clicks return. The pops and clicks do not happen in the same spot. Meaning, if I here a pop and rewind the transport a bit I won't hear the pop in the same place.
This confirms what I've been seeing all along -- the finger seems to pointing at the Delta's S/PDIF output. I believe I have proven the HEDD to be OK when I tested it with another ADC clocking the HEDD's S/PDIF input / DAC. And the Delta doesn't exhibit this issue at 44.1k or 48k. And the Delta works at all sample rates when I monitor through it directly (not S/PDIF). The clicks happen randomly on either the left or right channels, but never happen on both channels at the same time.
OK, now I close my session and set the Delta's Master Clock to Internal and keep the buffer size maxed out. I put the HEDD into full Digital mode, which means it isn't doing ADC and isn't clocking -- it's just sitting there waiting for a clock to run the DAC chain.
Reopen that same session. If I record enable those same tracks I get silence. If I record "nothing" I get silence. The "nothing" before was nothing connected to the HEDD while it is the clock master. This "nothing" is nothing connected to the HEDD with the Delta as the clock master. I technically could not record in this mode and use the HEDDs converters as there's no common clock between the two.
Here's where things get weird. I now have 2 sets of recordings on the same tracks. The first set was recorded with the first setup (HEDD master) and the second set was recorded with this second setup (Delta master). When I play the whole session back I only hear the pops and clicks in the audio regions that were recorded using the first setup! This is bizarre to me. Isn't silence silence? Maybe one is a recording of no audio while the other is a recording of no connection.
Well, I'm intrigued enough to close and re-open this same session under the first clocking scheme (HEDD master). Same thing. I hear pops and clicks in playback of the first recording but not the second.
Now I import a pink noise sample and play it back under both clocking scenarios -- pops and clicks in both.
Any clues in this epic post?
Thanks.
The card I used to test was Rev B. Since the pops and clicks occur randomly and aren't recorded, it sounds like a clocking issue; it's just odd you only get it at 88.2/96. Try installing the XP Hotfix for multi-core processors (http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=support.faq&ID=279c0f7fe6f59968d1871be680d2ceeb). Are there any devices left you haven't yet disabled? Like Wireless, Ethernet, built-in audio, or Bluetooth?
Well, I tried the hotfix. Same results. Disabled a few more things (CD/DVD drives, ethernet, system restore) that I would usually leave enabled. Same results. Moved back to XP SP3. Moved to the 5069 driver. Same results. Alright. I may be ready to white-flag this effort.
I've got mad respect for this li'l Delta 66. It's given me YEARS of reliable use. But I have to ask the question... would moving to the Audiophile 192 solve this problem? Can you say that its design is newer/better/faster? Or is it more likely there's still something unusual about my native system that we haven't discovered yet?
EDIT: Hmmm... I went to try a 48k session in this configuration and I get near-constant popping and crackling in the left output only. Uninstalled SP3. Kept the 5069 driver (I was feeling a bit wild). The 48k session plays fine now. Played the 96k session -- pops and crackles. Wait a minute. Played the 48k session again -- pops and crackles. Reboot. 48k session plays fine. Once the output goes bad it seems to stay that way until a reboot?
Bump. (That'll teach me to post right before a long holiday weekend!) :)
Bump. I've got a friend with a Delta 66. I tried his card in my system and got identical results. That test only rules out my card being defective.
So, is the 192 a "better" card at 96k? Is it a clue that once my card gets messed up it stays that way at all sample rates until a reboot? Is there still something sub-standard about my system?
Oh... burning questions.
Since the problem doesn't seem to be hardware related, I would think you'd have the same behavior with the AP192.
Have you tried going to Start>Run>msconfig and disabling all startup items and non-Microsoft services?
Yup. I've tried this with all unnecessary hardware disabled (USB, Ethernet, On-Board Sound, CD/DVD Drives, etc.) or physically removed from the system, no startup items, and all non-Microsoft services disabled -- all after a fresh reformat and OS install. High sample rates play back fine through the Omni I/O, just not out the S/PDIF port. I agree my system is still a prime suspect. I just for the life of me can't figure out anything else to look at.
The one thing that *does* seem hardware related is that once I get the pops and clicks (generated by use at high sample rates) I get them at all sample rates until I reboot.
The one thing that *does* seem hardware related is that once I get the pops and clicks (generated by use at high sample rates) I get them at all sample rates until I reboot.
When you tested with the other Delta 66, did you also experience the problem at all sample rates after it occurred at the higher sample rates?
Have you tested your Delta 66 in your buddy's computer to see if it works at high sample rates there?
Haven't tried those. Thanks. More homework... :)
Both Delta 66s perform identically (with problems) in my system. Then I started swapping PCI slots around again. Same thing. Then I updated to SP3 and repeated everything. The only "improvement" I seemed to notice is that in slot 3 I'd also be able to go back to a clean 44k or 48k sound after hearing pops and clicks at 88k or 96k (no reboot required). Man, I'm stumped here. I just can't figure out what I haven't tried yet with my system.
The friend that lent me a Delta actually runs an RME card -- his was a "spare." I haven't tried a Delta in anybody else's system.
I went back to check a few basic assumptions: 1) that my HEDD was fine; and 2) that it's just the Delta's S/PDIF output that's a problem. Well, the HEDD seems fine -- I clocked its DAC from another digital source (dbx 386) and everything sounded fine at 96k. But when I checked the analog output of the Delta's DAC, sure enough, there was noise there at 96k. This whole time I thought it was just the S/PDIF output. Anyway, that's just another finger pointing at my system.
There are two types of noise -- a "static" type sound and a "click" type sound (similar to what you'd hear from vinyl). When monitoring through S/PDIF I hear both types. When monitoring through the OMNI I only hear the "static" type.
Assuming that it is my system (I guess a good scientist wouldn't completely rule out the Delta yet) there are 3 general views -- 1) it's impossible, my system just can't handle it; 2) there's something really obvious I'm missing; 3) there's something really unusual or esoteric that I'm missing. My vote is #3.
I'm looking for any other bizarre or highly-unlikely things to try...
EDIT: A reminder that when I was experimenting with setting up my system as a Standard PC I believe I was able to get it working cleanly at 96k. I just couldn't get the system to stabilize overall though. It just makes me believe that it's not impossible (#1) to get this working.
Do you have a dedicated recording drive? Have you gone as far as disabling your com, serial, and parallel ports?
Yes and yes. Last night I started messing around with PCI latency timers. No luck so far. Now I'm pouring through all the optimization advice over on gearslutz.com. Once I get through that maybe I'll start bouncing slots again. Although I do have serial, parallel and on-board sound disabled in BIOS it's been awhile since I've tried to disable everything but PS2. I still got the noises when everything was disabled so I just re-enabled things again.
I'm thinking there's a silver bullet here -- that I'm gonna find *that one thing* that makes it start working.
Don't give up on me! Keep the ideas comin'! :)
Uncle. I've pretty much run through every tweak on gearslutz. Then I turned everything off except my PS2 mouse. Then I tried every PCI slot. It's just not happening.
I'm going to make another post specifically asking if anyone has a Delta 66 running at 96k on an ASUS P5B since it's been just the two of us dialoging.
Thanks for all your effort JA.
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