2496 and stuttering in games under Win 7
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Thread: 2496 and stuttering in games under Win 7

  1. #1
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    Default 2496 and stuttering in games under Win 7

    Hi,

    I've got strange problem.
    Couple weeks ago everything was was fine, my M-Audio Delta 2496 was working fine in all cases. But I had to change my hard drives, so installed systems again. My primary system is Windows 7 x64, so I've installed everything as usual (SP1, motherboard drivers, nVidia utilities to manage networking, antivirus etc). And then reinstalled 2 games (Far Cry, Race Driver: GRID) - first notice was sound stutters a bit.
    It is strange as previously I've never experienced such inconvienience.
    I didn't change anything in BIOS (like C1 state, EIST - everything is on, like before, when sound card was working flawlessly) though.

    Have you got any suggestions, what might happened ?

    Stuttering I mean is strange, too - because for example - one track is being played good, but second track stutters, like there was a holes in sound. And it happens not all the time, I can launch a game and hear sound well for 5 minutes, but later - stuttering appears.
    All setting are exactly the same like previously. I've tried to changle sample buffer from 256 to 512 - no changes.

    My previous system was clean, but with some hardware changes. I used SB Audigy and X-Fi Xtreme Audio, but after swap to M-Audio I've cleaned system with Driver Sweeper.

    Under Linux everything seems to be fine. Under Win 7 Winamp and other sounds like Flash play fine, too.

    I've found one similar issue, but a guy who suffered it claimed he used a WiFi card - which I don't have.

    My system spec:
    Asus Striker II Extreme s775
    BIOS - newest, energy saving on
    Q8400 no o/c
    Windows 7 x64 with all newest patches
    second sound card: Supreme FX 2 (PCIe x1)
    latest M-Audio drivers
    nVidia graphic cards in SLI + nVidia tools (two lan ports enabled)

    Any suggestions, please ?
    I will try to disable power saving options in BIOS, but I don't expect it helps.

    Thank you,
    Martin
    Last edited by biuro74; 03-12-2011 at 04:43 AM.

  2. #2
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    P.S.
    I've noticed something REALLY weird. I've tried to record this stuttering using M-Audio mixer. So I've launched FarCry game, pressed record button in Audacity... well.. I've heard stuttering in intro, so being happy pressed stop in Audacity. What was my surprise when i did a playback (using M-Audio) and... stuttering disappeared !

    I include this file, it's here:
    http://www.jeomax.co.uk/files/maudio_mixer_rec.wav

    So then, I used second soundcard for recording and used a microphone (mono, sorry) to record what was heard form speakers. And finally, there's stuttering at the beginning. Unfortunately, my wife cannot recognize this stuttering, so I feel like abnormal psycho, but on the other hand, I realize that some people do hear details in sounds, and some don't.

    It's mic recording:
    http://www.jeomax.co.uk/files/supreme_mic_rec.wav

    Can anybody explain me, why the same sound is heard LIVE with stuttering, but during recorded playback - stutters dissapear ??

  3. #3
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    P.S.2.
    I removed second graphic card from my SLI system - and voila, stuttering disappeared !
    But it's not an option, because I'm going to have SLI, especially that M-Audio was working flawlessly before system reinstall. I've noticed few more things:
    1) M-Audio takes IRQ 16. The same interrupt is occupied by graphic cards (one, or both) and PCI-to-PCI bridge (one, or both - depending on how much graphic cards seats here). Due to ACPI nature, I can't easily manipulate with IRQs, so maybe some other method is required - like installing Windows with another PCI sound card, and then, swap it to M-Audio, or something else ? Maybe drivers should have an option for advanced users for acquiring most acceptable IRQ ?
    2) WIndows XP suffers the same.

    So anybody has a clue, what to do (having SLI, as before) to avoid occasional stuttering ?
    I'm a bit concerned, because I was picking up sound cards for long time and actual config seemed to be OK for my needs at once.

  4. #4
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    Disable power saving features. You have a second PCI slot, try using it, even if you have to rotate other cards around. You wont be able to manually configure IRQ's in Windows 7, and I'm not sure if your hardware will support trying to do it manually either. Windows 7 will automatically set IRQs, regardless of what's "best." Windows 7 doesn't take into consideration that Delta series cards need a lot of bandwidth for recording or even playback at full 24/96, and would take a lot more work in Windows to change that. That's a job for M$.

    Your stuttering problem is coming from the amount of bandwidth that the graphics card is taking over the sound card. Disabling the power saving features might be able to help that, but you'd have to test it.

    Also, because I'm quite well aware about computer hardware (working in a computer shop, building high end CAD workstations), you aren't going to get any benefit out of using two network ports at once. It doesn't matter if you unplug it or disable it in the BIOS, but you might see a difference in that. I'd also strongly suggest not using nVidia software tools to manage network flow, because unless it's packet filtering, you aren't going to see any benefit to it. Additionally, that software can conflict with the 2496, and be causing other problems, but we're going to deal with what's at hand first.

    I would suggest disabling PhysX in the nVidia control panel unless the game you're playing actually uses it. This can also cause a problem with the Delta card because it means the graphics cards need a lot more bandwidth during gameplay.

    Third party software like "Driver Sweeper" are utterly useless. You should uninstall drivers yourself, through the uninstall utility, and run a good Registry Cleaner. CCleaner or Norton Utilities. Don't leave software you don't use installed on your computer, and don't download bloatware like Driver Sweeper, it wont help you at all.

    Since you've stated that XP and 7 both stutter the same, this is clearly a hardware problem, that you need to try disabling power saving features for, or swapping the PCI slot you're using.

    Lastly, I'd suggest only having one sound card installed in your computer at once.
    Core 2 Quad Q9400-Scythe Ninja Rev A|MSI Neo P45|WD 150GB Raptor|WD 250gb SATA-I|8GB G-Skill DDR2|WD Blue 640GB SATA-II|Logitech KB|Apple Mighty Mouse|ATI HD4850 512MB-Accelero S1|M-Audio 2x Delta 1010|Delta 66 Omni I/O|Corsair 400W|Cooler Master Elite 330
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  5. #5
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    Thanks mate for quick response.
    I'm in computers since over 24 years, I sell computers, too and I'm troubleshooter as well (nomen omen), but this issue made me really angry, so I try to ask here, in source of M-Audio knowledge

    First of all, to being understood well, it's an attitude: I don't want to change anything in my soft, or hardware due to one simple reason: it worked well. Really did. I'd like to find out a way how it worked flawlessly and I'm sure there's something I missed out. Or underestimated ;-) I believe there's simple way to make it worked, but I haven't discovered that way yet :-)

    Power saving options was disabled in system as first. I've checked disabling C1 & EIST in BIOS, as stated, but with no luck, too.
    I've got 2 PCI slots, but second one is covered by second graphic card. I use SLI very often, so using second PCI slot is not an option (by the way, as I wrote before, once second card is taken out, stuttering disappears).
    I don't think this is important anyway, because all worked fine with SLI setup.

    Regarding to bandwidth: my mobo has enough of lanes due to nForce 200 lane-doubler. Even with SLI there's x16 (1.0) link to be used, so it's not an issue.

    Two network ports is because of high-spec mobo, so it's not like I would like to have it: I must have both, I can't rip them off But one port is usually disabled.
    Of course, there's one interesting thing that I can do with 2 LAN ports: link them and have better connection (regarding to ping and speed terms).. but I suppose 1 WAN link is not enough for it and 2 links are required to gain full advantages.

    I'm not sure about nVidia tools - if I had them installed last tme, or not. And how they were configured. But it gives me some more functionality than packet filtering - packet prioritizing,. for example, which probably caused being rejected from some online games ;-) I had no time to check it out.
    I will check it, but not today. Today I got rid of second card from SLI setup and I'm going to have one stronger.. for a while, so until I put second card again, I'm free of sound stutters. But I'm open-minded for any suggestions, too - so I will check out definately all nVidia tools (nvidia_system_tools_6.06 and nTune_5.05).

    PhysX is not guilty as I was working on the same latest nV drivers, with no update. I update PhysX with new drivers only. So it worked fine with Auto(2) settings, I mean sound was fine and second card was automatically assigned to additional work.

    Driver Sweeper helps me to clean system when I want to definately remove them. I suggest you to change graphic or sound card vendor, and you'll probably see what I mean.

    And I can't have just one sound card installed, as I need both: SupremeFX2 is "built-in" sound in many ROG series mobos, it takes special PCIe x1 slot, own IRQ and I use it for... microphone
    M-Audio is rest what I want: sound and MIDI port for my keyboard. I spent too much time to completing this set and I was unaware at the beginning it would bring so many troubles and it wouldn't be easy ;-) For example: SB Audigy with additional MIDI bracket was completely fine unless I discovered it suffers microphone issue under Windows 7 when 4 and more gigs of memory is installed (memory leak - known bug that Creative doesn't want to remove forcing people to buy newer cards). Next was X-Fi Xtreme Audio, but Linux didn't support it at all.. and MIDI-to-USB connector which seemed not to record, but was playing all fine. So I decided to use "built in" SupremeFX2 for mic only and M-Audio for other parts... and it worked fine until Win7 reinstall.

    Everything I'm gonna do now is to recreate the path - how to do steps from point A to Z to get it worked together again

  6. #6
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    Regarding to bandwidth: my mobo has enough of lanes due to nForce 200 lane-doubler. Even with SLI there's x16 (1.0) link to be used, so it's not an issue.
    PCI-Express lanes are not what are in question. The bandwidth from the CPU does not increase because you have an nForce 200 lane-doubler. The CPU is only able to provide so much data bandwidth between the PCI and PCI-Express busses, and since they share IRQ's, you're going to have problems when you need both to work at the same time.

    Additionally, I have made the jump between companies before, and never needed driver cleaners. Originally I had nVidia cards, and have moved on to a faster ATI HD4850.

    Simply put, the biggest change between your old install and your new install are updated drivers (assuming the hardware hasn't changed, and you haven't updated the BIOS).
    Core 2 Quad Q9400-Scythe Ninja Rev A|MSI Neo P45|WD 150GB Raptor|WD 250gb SATA-I|8GB G-Skill DDR2|WD Blue 640GB SATA-II|Logitech KB|Apple Mighty Mouse|ATI HD4850 512MB-Accelero S1|M-Audio 2x Delta 1010|Delta 66 Omni I/O|Corsair 400W|Cooler Master Elite 330
    Dual Boot: Ubuntu 10.04 x64 Lucid/Windows 7 Home Premium x64
    Adobe Audition Mac & PC, Logic Pro, Ardour, PT 9, Reaper x86 & x64, Ableton Live Lite
    2x Delta 1010, 2x Delta 66, AP2496, FW Solo, Pulsar II, ProFire 2626, Fast Track C400

  7. #7
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    Communicating between PCI and PCIe (devices) is through HyperTransport link as PCIe devices are handled by NorhtBridge and PCI devices by SouthBridge. In some cases when all PCIe lanes are fulfilled there's dropdown with PCI speed (or even SATA) - so I just noticed it's not a problem.
    The case you describe (not enough bandwidth) is more likely characteristic for slower CPUs, and not for Q8400 as I can presume. If it were true, so quad cores working @ 2.66 GHz were unable to handle interrupts for two graphic cards and two sound cards - which You must admit, sounds a bit ridiculously.
    I still remind that EVERYTHING was working fine before reinstall.

    No - drivers hasn't been updated as there was nothing to update. I don't make updates with every new reinstall, but keep system updated all the time, it means before reinstall I had newest drivers - the same I used later, after reinstall (I keep all installs on harddrive, don't download them).

    More weird is fact that stuttering appears in newly installed games (DiRT2), but it doesn't show up in "old" (installed already) games, where stuttering appeared with SLI (GRID, FarCry). Now I've got just one card, with no SLI. It's some kind of nightmare, because all my harddrive changes required plenty of time spent @ installs&configurations (2 Windowses, 4 Linuxes). My Windows 7 install is almost fresh so I'm worried about next installations :/
    But now stuttering is present on SupremeFX2, too - it's main difference. I uninstalled nVidia tools - no change. Reinstalled drivers - no change. I won't reinstall game as it has 1 or 2 activation left, so it's pointless. I've checked all my installed software - and I've got no rubbish there.

    It's first time that I can see new, fresh install behaves worse than "old" one :/
    Last edited by biuro74; 03-16-2011 at 02:31 PM.
    MSI P67A-GD65(B3) :: i5-2300 :: CM Hyper 212+ :: 4 GB RAM :: GTX460 "Hawk" 1GB :: 2x1TB Samsung F3 EcoGreen RAID-0 & OCZ Agility 60GB SSD:: M-Audio Audiophile 2496 :: Creative I-Trigue L3450 :: Dell ST2210
    Mandriva 2010.1 :: Mandriva 2010.1 x64 :: Mageia Alpha 1 :: Ubuntu 10.10 x64 :: Windows XP :: Windows 7 user

  8. #8
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    It's not about the ability to handle interrupts, it's the order in which they're processed and the bus speed they operate at.

    If the stuttering is present on the SupremeFX2 as well as the Delta 2496, then you have some other problem going on with your computer that is unrelated.

    http://www.resplendence.com/latencymon

    I would run that in Windows 7 and see what it's saying about your driver situation. You also haven't once doubted any of your hardware for being bad, which I would test first. I would go to your Grub or Lilo boot menu, and run Memtest 86 for a solid 6-12 hours and see if your RAM is causing this.

    Also, I used to have problems with my Q9400, which is significantly better than a Q8400, so no, just because you have a quad core doesn't mean you're immune to basic hardware problems involving IRQs and CPU throttling.

    At the very least, reset your BIOS to default settings, and make sure all of your drivers are at the latest version through Windows Update or the device manufacturer. Make sure you have no extra software installed that isn't needed, and run thorough antivirus software, like SuperAntiSpyware, Microsoft Security Essentials and/or MalwareBytes AntiMalware. Cover all your bases with this, because testing between 1 and 2 graphics cards and 1 and 2 sound cards is the tip of the iceberg if you're having stability problems with all audio output.

    Also, just for sake of argument, unless you have throttling disabled, your Q8400 is probably running at 2.0Ghz or less 90% of the time to save power.
    Core 2 Quad Q9400-Scythe Ninja Rev A|MSI Neo P45|WD 150GB Raptor|WD 250gb SATA-I|8GB G-Skill DDR2|WD Blue 640GB SATA-II|Logitech KB|Apple Mighty Mouse|ATI HD4850 512MB-Accelero S1|M-Audio 2x Delta 1010|Delta 66 Omni I/O|Corsair 400W|Cooler Master Elite 330
    Dual Boot: Ubuntu 10.04 x64 Lucid/Windows 7 Home Premium x64
    Adobe Audition Mac & PC, Logic Pro, Ardour, PT 9, Reaper x86 & x64, Ableton Live Lite
    2x Delta 1010, 2x Delta 66, AP2496, FW Solo, Pulsar II, ProFire 2626, Fast Track C400

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonestonne View Post
    It's not about the ability to handle interrupts, it's the order in which they're processed and the bus speed they operate at.
    As far as I know IRQs are not a problem in modern PCs unless system shows a conflict in Device Manager. So FSB is not important (mine is 1333QPB), prioritizing them might be a clue - I've tried to raise IRQ17's priority (which M-Audio sits at), but it didn't help.

    Quote Originally Posted by bonestonne View Post
    If the stuttering is present on the SupremeFX2 as well as the Delta 2496, then you have some other problem going on with your computer that is unrelated.
    Thank you for that link, I'm checking it right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by bonestonne View Post
    I would run that in Windows 7 and see what it's saying about your driver situation. You also haven't once doubted any of your hardware for being bad, which I would test first. I would go to your Grub or Lilo boot menu, and run Memtest 86 for a solid 6-12 hours and see if your RAM is causing this.
    No.
    Because as you know, memory hard errors influence not only sound card, but stability of whole system. So in that case (bad memory cell) I would have something more serious than stuttering in some occasional situations, wouldn't I ? I would rather say it's M-Audio damage, because of specific stuttering that occurs (yes, I will check it on another PC).
    BTW, yesterday I've changed memory to faster one - and no change with stuttering. Usually I do MemTest-ing with new memory stick as yesterday I did it couple of times checking many settings, so I can say memory has done about 7-8 loops and they are fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by bonestonne View Post
    Also, I used to have problems with my Q9400, which is significantly better than a Q8400, so no, just because you have a quad core doesn't mean you're immune to basic hardware problems involving IRQs and CPU throttling.
    Come on, Q9400 does have just 512KB cache L2 more per core than mine, and overclocks a bit better, that's it Nowadays CPUs are not immune to problems - which are SOFTWARE one BTW - but they can cope IRQ handling with ease. BTW again for handling interrupts is chip like Intel 82093AA which as far as I know is present in all modern SMP motherboards.
    And as I wrote - I've tried to disable CPU throttling (in newly installed system it's almost first thing I do), but in BIOS it didn't change anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by bonestonne View Post
    At the very least, reset your BIOS to default settings, and make sure all of your drivers are at the latest version through Windows Update or the device manufacturer. Make sure you have no extra software installed that isn't needed, and run thorough antivirus software, like SuperAntiSpyware, Microsoft Security Essentials and/or MalwareBytes AntiMalware. Cover all your bases with this, because testing between 1 and 2 graphics cards and 1 and 2 sound cards is the tip of the iceberg if you're having stability problems with all audio output.
    I feel like person who I usually give advice to It's all done, no worries. I wrote - it seems like I forgot about something - but it's not so obvious like newest drivers (which are exactly the same like before reinstall, because there's no driver update for me since then.. except usual Windows 7 updates). I don't use such c**p like SuperAntiSpyware, or other HyperSuperNewestSoftwareForVeryImportantThing - just simple (and trusted, because used for years) soft, like Avira, Gimp, TotalCommander. It's not much, because more work is being done under Linux.
    Also, my config has been changed - now I use just one graphic card, and I've changed PCI slot to change my Delta's IRQ (from 16 shared to 17 non-shared)... but stuttering still appears, unfortunately.

    Quote Originally Posted by bonestonne View Post
    Also, just for sake of argument, unless you have throttling disabled, your Q8400 is probably running at 2.0Ghz or less 90% of the time to save power.
    You said yourself - "it's about bus speed they operate at", so change the CPU multiplier means nothing for FSB which remains the same But I've checked throttling, as mentioned, and it's not that :=/

    Maybe your LatencyMon shows something interesting, will see - I'm still testing.
    I really appreciate your responses as I can do brain-drain which maybe leads to correct answer which I look for

    Thank you,
    Martin
    Last edited by biuro74; 03-19-2011 at 01:27 PM.
    MSI P67A-GD65(B3) :: i5-2300 :: CM Hyper 212+ :: 4 GB RAM :: GTX460 "Hawk" 1GB :: 2x1TB Samsung F3 EcoGreen RAID-0 & OCZ Agility 60GB SSD:: M-Audio Audiophile 2496 :: Creative I-Trigue L3450 :: Dell ST2210
    Mandriva 2010.1 :: Mandriva 2010.1 x64 :: Mageia Alpha 1 :: Ubuntu 10.10 x64 :: Windows XP :: Windows 7 user

  10. #10
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    Today I've done some more tests. M-Audio put into another PC sounds fine, with no stuttering (MP3, DIRT2, Assassins Creed). I've checked it on my standard speakers (Creative I-Trigue L3450).

    For being more clear, I explain how the whole situation arose in chronological story.

    1. Many months ago: I've installed Windows 7 x64, with *no* "built-in" card (SupremeFX2, which takes PCIex1 slot and is not built-in into motherboard in fact, but included as external PCIe card - it's common in most old ROG series, to raise sound quality). Main sound card was Audigy which occupied last free PCI slot. SLI was present - 2 GTS 250 cards. Sound was OK, no stuttering noticed in GRID, DIRT2, Assassins Creed, FarCry.
    2. Few months later I added X-Fi Xtreme Audio PCIe, because of "memory leak" in Audigy 64-bit drivers that made microphone use unavailable in practice. Main soundcard was Audigy, X-Fi was for microphone purposes only. Haven't notice nothing bad with sound, except issues with mic on Audigy. X-Fi mic was fine (but there's was no MIDI, nor Linux support, so it couldn't be main soundcard anyway).
    3. Few months later I removed both soundcards, cleaned old drivers (normal uninstall + Driver sweeper for some trash) and out one M-Audio 2496. Still no sound issues noticed.
    4. Few weeks later I added SupremeFX2 into PCIe slot for cheap microphone use. In fact, I had no SupremeFX2 in my mobo box, so I've bought it separately. Card was taken from another mobo, but since it's the same model, card worked fine. Still no sound issues found.
    5. Few weeks later - and about month ago - I changed my hard drives which made me to reinstall all my systems. During install SLI was present, and *two* sound cards was populated into slots: M-Audio PCI and SupremeFX2 PCIe. I've installed the same drivers - one difference was ServicePack1 for Windows 7 which simply didn't exist before reinstall. There might be light difference in software I installed (like nVidia tools), or some settings which I used (like M-Audio output: mixer, or sw rtn) - now it's impossible to remind what was exactly present before reinstall and how exactly it was configured as I had NO ISSUES AT ALL, so didn't pay special attention to particular details - it just worked fine. But since reinstall, sound started stutter in some games I've just installed: GRID and FarCry. It was present in SupremeFX2, too (?).
    6. I removed two graphic cards and put one, stronger. It caused unlocking one more PCI slot, so I swapped M-Audio to it. Stuttering in GRID and FarCry DOESN'T APPEAR NOW.
    7. So I've installed next games - DIRT2, Assasisn Creed - in DIRT2 strange voice distortion appeared, but I removed game by accident. GRID and FarCry are still fine. In Assassins Creed it's something like this:

    http://www.jeomax.co.uk/files/ma_asscreed.wav


    Stuttering DOESN'T appear on SupremeFX2 in any game.

    I've tried almost everything - last time I've raised IRQ17 priority - no change. Before PCI slot swap for M-Audio, it occupied IRQ16 shared with two graphic cards, now it's 17 non-shared.
    I've tried to switch output - sw rtn to mixer (it helped to one guy), but no luck. I was changing mixing quality (upto 96 KHz): both in M-Audio settings, and in WIndows sound settings (small option to switch between 16 and 24-bit quality), but it was before PCI swap. I will do it again, of course. But what else can I do ?

    LatencyMon sometimes shows me no issues, sometiomes it points to svchost and sevices tasks as most dangerous tasks regarding to hard pagefaults.. so maybe it's some Service which I disabled and which was part of something else ? I always control my msconfig, otherwise I would have plenty of trash in my startup and services which simply I don't need.

    As an example:
    List of disabled startup elements (msconfig):
    Adobe Reader and Acrobat Manager
    Adobe Acrobat
    Bing Bar
    Canon My Printer
    Microsoft Default Manager
    Steam
    Java Platform SE Auto Updater 2.0
    OpenOffice.org 3.3

    List of disabled services (msconfig), non-Microsoft:
    Install Driver Table Manager
    NVIDIA driver helper Service
    VNC Server version 4
    an disabled M$ services:
    Microsoft Search
    Last edited by biuro74; 03-21-2011 at 05:20 AM.
    MSI P67A-GD65(B3) :: i5-2300 :: CM Hyper 212+ :: 4 GB RAM :: GTX460 "Hawk" 1GB :: 2x1TB Samsung F3 EcoGreen RAID-0 & OCZ Agility 60GB SSD:: M-Audio Audiophile 2496 :: Creative I-Trigue L3450 :: Dell ST2210
    Mandriva 2010.1 :: Mandriva 2010.1 x64 :: Mageia Alpha 1 :: Ubuntu 10.10 x64 :: Windows XP :: Windows 7 user

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